Signing up and then being skipped

[Aleveena]

I've had multiple raids where I sign up almost as soon as they are created. The raid leader will then let the raid sit and allow it to stack to 3x the amount of people that can actually come. They then pick who they like a few hours before raid starts. I've seen them pick others over me even if the other person has the same iLVL (or a difference of 2 ilvl points), experience, class, reputation, etc. Plus everyone uses the general comments to beg or negotiate for a spot.

It doesn't seem fair that we have to commit to be available for days, move our schedule around, and then get skipped because the raid leader doesn't really want to bother.

I recommend that raid creation allow for everything to be specified in advance, class, spec, iLvl, experience, rep. Then it should be first come first serve. Once someone takes that spot and commits, then only one other person is allowed to sign up as a reserve if they really want to. It wouldn't be up to the raid leader to decide. Then if there is an opening because the person didn't show, they should get bad rep for screwing the team and the raid leader can use something like a raid opening queue. Instead of it being a chat, it would just be a posting of the position needed so that the first person that responds would automatically be added.

If a raid leader really wants to get an OP raid to carry him through the achievements, then that should be what chat is used for.

[Gnosh]

Signing up and being skipped is lame. I try to invite by sign-up time when possible, deferring to group requirements when necessary.

Right now, it's totally the group leader's prerogative who to bring, and under what criteria. We aren't looking to limit that. The sign-up scenario you describe could end up being pretty limiting, as a leader could conceivably end up with 75 sign-ups for a 25-man run and have them not arranged in a makeup he actually wants to take- unless he's able to boot players out of the slots at will, which would make the situation no different than what we have now. It's *possible* that your suggestion may become an optional way to create a raid, but it likely won't ever be mandatory.

In the future, if you find that raid leaders have policies (acceptance or otherwise) you don't appreciate, I'd suggest avoiding their raids.

[Darrie]

Playing devil's advocate, I wouldn't just assume he/she is "skipping" you arbitrarily.

In general if I am not promoting people as they sign up (first come first serve), its because I need a specific balance of classes or I'm requiring a certain level of experience. So I wait. Its much more polite to wait to promote, than to demote later because a more qualified candidate signed up.

Of course, it just could be poor leadership also. But I'm just offering the other side of the coin.

[Aleveena]

Thanks for awesome feedback.

The way that I was suggesting would actually allow the raid leader to choose what can come ahead of time. Some fights require certain makeups. Do you need 1 OP combat rogue, 1 normal holy priest, 1 SV hunter? Select that from a dropdown.

Basically, for a 10-man raid, it would have 10 rows. Here is an example row, all fields should be optional.

Class, Spec, minimum iLVL, Already completed, reputation
Hunter, SV, 397, yes, good
Rogue, Combat, 401, not selected, not selected
Priest, Holy, 383, not selected, not selected

The first SV hunter that qualifies and signs up automatically get the slot. Any other qualified SV hunters are allowed to sign up as backups, if they choose. The raid leader gets exactly what he needs and the hunter knows what he will be doing on Saturday night.

How does that sound?

[Kych]

The issue with a system like this is it promotes min-maxing, which is perfect for current content, but when doing runs such as ICC or Ulduar it just isnt required.

Also there is far more specs than 10 so 10 mans would instantly limit who could sign up to those 'reserved' slots.

[Aleveena]

Which still goes along with the idea. I'm not trying to present an idea to see if there is anything wrong with it. I'm trying to come up with something that is even better for raid leaders and for members wanting to join. I was hoping that together we could come up with a solution that is good.

The idea that I had doesn't necessarily mean that every possible option needs to be filled out by raid leader. Just that if a raid leader really felt that certain requirements needed to be filled then he could specify it. It doesn't have to apply to all 10 or 25 slots. Just that if there was a reasonable guarantee to the raid leader that he got what he was looking for then a raid joiner could have a reasonable guarantee that he would be rewarded by making a commitment.

For example, let's say that I was running an Ulduar 10 raid just so that I could get the 'Who Needs Bloodlust?' Achievement. The only thing that I really care about is that a shadow priest comes. Optionally, I want to make sure that half of the dps is ranged. Maybe I feel that I only need one tank and one healer. After I set those options, then people can join. When I ready to run my raid, I'm happy because I have my sp and others to help. Others are happy because they didn't have to blow their Friday night praying that I would pick them.

Does anyone know if this idea can be improved? Would love to know because if we have something that makes openraid better then more people will support it.

[Xyriin]

Personally as a raid leader I want to build the raid. I don't want first come first serve forced on me. If I'm doing something that requires more than warm bodies I want to put together the best team possible.

It really just seems like this whole idea comes from being picked last and you want to force raid leaders to pick you. The whole point of the two party sign and approval is that both people agree to the raid. If you force first come first serve then you remove that choice by the raid leader.

I've had multiple raids where I sign up almost as soon as they are created. The raid leader will then let the raid sit and allow it to stack to 3x the amount of people that can actually come. They then pick who they like a few hours before raid starts. I've seen them pick others over me even if the other person has the same iLVL (or a difference of 2 ilvl points), experience, class, reputation, etc. Plus everyone uses the general comments to beg or negotiate for a spot.

If you are constantly being skipped then pick a less popular run or fix the reason you keep getting passed over.

It doesn't seem fair that we have to commit to be available for days, move our schedule around, and then get skipped because the raid leader doesn't really want to bother.

I also don't think it's fair as a raid leader to be forced into approving people. Your comment about scheduling is amusing, as if somehow the first person who signs up will magically have better attendance. In fact, approving people instantly as soon as they sign up could make the raid leader lose out on other potential raiders as they look for another raid, only then to have the person approved 5 days out change to not coming the day of anyway.

I recommend that raid creation allow for everything to be specified in advance, class, spec, iLvl, experience, rep. Then it should be first come first serve. Once someone takes that spot and commits, then only one other person is allowed to sign up as a reserve if they really want to. It wouldn't be up to the raid leader to decide. Then if there is an opening because the person didn't show, they should get bad rep for screwing the team and the raid leader can use something like a raid opening queue. Instead of it being a chat, it would just be a posting of the position needed so that the first person that responds would automatically be added.

So why even have a raid leader then? Let's just eliminate the whole point of raid leaders making raids because you want to remove any choice they have in making a raid. We can then just have 'Raid Inviters' sit in chat and invite people from there, and go to true first come first serve. /s

The way that I was suggesting would actually allow the raid leader to choose what can come ahead of time. Some fights require certain makeups. Do you need 1 OP combat rogue, 1 normal holy priest, 1 SV hunter? Select that from a dropdown.

Why force this? The raid leader will choose the best comp from the available people at raid time. If the raid leader feels like noting their desired raid comp they can easily do so in the comments. A simple "prefer ranged dps over melee" will suffice without having to make things more complicated.

The first SV hunter that qualifies and signs up automatically get the slot. Any other qualified SV hunters are allowed to sign up as backups, if they choose. The raid leader gets exactly what he needs and the hunter knows what he will be doing on Saturday night.

Hell no, being forced to take the first person that signs up does not fill needs. As a raid leader the first person who signs may or may not be what I need. Once again I see this backwards logic of the first person to sign up being the best fit for the raid spot.

Which still goes along with the idea. I'm not trying to present an idea to see if there is anything wrong with it. I'm trying to come up with something that is even better for raid leaders and for members wanting to join. I was hoping that together we could come up with a solution that is good.

I'm sorry there is something wrong with it. The whole idea is making assumptions about the faster the signup the better the skill and reliability. That kind of bias would not benefit raid leaders or members.

The idea that I had doesn't necessarily mean that every possible option needs to be filled out by raid leader. Just that if a raid leader really felt that certain requirements needed to be filled then he could specify it. It doesn't have to apply to all 10 or 25 slots. Just that if there was a reasonable guarantee to the raid leader that he got what he was looking for then a raid joiner could have a reasonable guarantee that he would be rewarded by making a commitment.

How does the current two party sign system not accomplish all that?
- A raid leader can specify certain requirements if he wants to in the comments. Check.
- A raid leader can place requirements on certain spots. Check.
- Reasonable guarantee for both parties regarding a raid spot. Check.
Everything you want this new idea to accomplish already exists.

For example, let's say that I was running an Ulduar 10 raid just so that I could get the 'Who Needs Bloodlust?' Achievement. The only thing that I really care about is that a shadow priest comes. Optionally, I want to make sure that half of the dps is ranged. Maybe I feel that I only need one tank and one healer. After I set those options, then people can join. When I ready to run my raid, I'm happy because I have my sp and others to help. Others are happy because they didn't have to blow their Friday night praying that I would pick them.

Example solution. Comment "Must have a shadow priest, tank, and healer". Raid leader then invites people around their own requirements. Problem solved.

Does anyone know if this idea can be improved? Would love to know because if we have something that makes openraid better then more people will support it.

Use the existing system, it is very robust if used properly and can handle anything you've pointed out that you'd like to do. As for the initial getting skipped over problem... If I had to use a system where I was auto-approved the first person who signed up, I'd simply use the remove option to completely remove them from the raid if I had a better option signup. I'd actually go one step further and toss in a line at the bottom of my raid information that said "Please don't be afraid to signup, I will replace sub-optimal raiders already approved." This whole idea really just sounds like you wanting to get a priority invite just because you plan your raids out a week in advance. That's great for you but sucks for everyone else who may only be able to plan a couple days out or only for the day. Let's be fair to everyone and not favor a small percentage of people.

My post probably seems a bit harsh but something that REMOVES functionality and options on OpenRaid I see as a horrible idea.

[Gnosh]

Signing up and being skipped is lame.

But,

It's *possible* that your suggestion may become an optional way to create a raid, but it likely won't ever be mandatory.

[Tacchi]

Can all be solved by a simple answer " Real lead yourself", if you have made your own time spare just for those specific days then its prolly in your best interest to lead a raid yourself.
If there is the numbers like in the raid you did sign up on im sure they will sign up to both raids and prehaps people will think otherwise about signing up to the one you aren't if you have a decent rep.

[Aleveena]

I have led raids before and everyone was happy; it's in my profile. So I'm gathering from everyone's positive comments that the openraid system got it right the first time. In that case, this is excellent. It was good to get positive feedback from the community.